Legislature(2001 - 2002)
04/29/2002 04:00 PM Senate RES
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 29, 2002
4:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator John Torgerson, Chair
Senator Gary Wilken, Vice Chair
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Ben Stevens
Senator Kim Elton
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 302(FIN)
"An Act establishing the Alaska Gas Corporation, a public
corporation, and providing for its structure, management,
responsibilities, and operation, and requiring the development of
a project plan to evaluate whether construction and operation of
a natural gas transmission pipeline project by the corporation is
feasible."
SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
HOUSE BILL NO. 53
"An Act establishing the Alaska Seismic Hazards Safety
Commission."
MOVED HB 53 OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 382(FIN)
"An Act relating to the evaluation and cleanup of sites where
certain controlled substances may have been manufactured or
stored; and providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 508(RLS)
"An Act relating to results of testing for paralytic shellfish
poisoning and to participation of the Department of Environmental
Conservation in the development of operating plans of qualified
regional dive fishery development associations."
MOVED CSHB 508(RLS) OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 47(RLS)
Urging the United States Environmental Protection Agency and the
Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation to provide
maximum possible flexibility in application of ultra low sulfur
diesel fuel requirements to Alaska.
MOVED CSHJR 47(RLS) OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
HB 53 - See State Affairs minutes dated 4/18/02.
HB 382 - No previous action to consider.
HB 508 - No previous action to consider.
HJR 47 - No previous action to consider.
WITNESS REGISTER
Mr. Milton Wiltse, Director
Division of Geological and Geophysical Surveys
Department of Natural Resources
794 University Ave Ste 200
Fairbanks AK 99707-3645
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 53.
Mr. Gary Carver
Kodiak AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 53.
Mr. Sheldon Winters
State Farm Insurance
300 Vintage Blvd.
Juneau AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 53.
Representative Gretchen Guess
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 382.
Lieutenant Julia Grimes
No address provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 382.
Ms. Mary Siroky, Legislative Liaison
Department of Environmental Conservation
410 Willoughby Ste 303
Juneau AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported on HB 382 and HB 508.
Ms. Julie Decker, Executive Director
Southeast Alaska Dive Fisheries Association
No Address Provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 508.
Ms. Donna Vukich
No Address Provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HJR 47.
Ms. Meera Kohler
No Address Provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HJR 47.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 02-23, SIDE A
Number 001
HB 53-SEISMIC HAZARDS SAFETY COMMISSION
CHAIRMAN JOHN TORGERSON called the Senate Resources Committee
meeting to order at 4:00 p.m. and announced HB 53 to be up for
consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES, sponsor of HB 53, said that most
other states formed earthquake commissions after the second
largest earthquake in Alaska that measured 9.2 on the Richter
scale. He added, "Alaska, ironically, is the only one to date
that hasn't."
He said it's important to understand the distinction between
preparedness for disaster and mitigating it. Preparation is done
to make sure things are in place, like exit routes and response
plans, when a disaster occurs. Mitigation is done ahead of time
to reduce the effects of the expected disaster. He said that
building codes are a form of mitigation for earthquake country.
When disasters are infrequent, such as large earthquakes, there's
a tendency to forget about the risks; that is why a commission is
necessary. Representative Davies said his main concern is that a
systematic look be taken at what steps the state should take, so
that when the next earthquake occurs, the loss of life and
property is reduced.
SENATOR WILKEN questioned why another section of government is
necessary to do this instead of DMV or the University.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES answered that government tends to be
segmented into different areas. He is proposing a commission be
established in the executive branch so that it has the ability to
look across inter-agency lines. Although DMV and the University
have taken some steps, in his and others' estimation (structural
engineers from Anchorage and scientists from the University of
Alaska), the state has not taken some steps that it should have.
He pointed out, "If we have this commission that's above the
individual agency level, we will get the appropriate look at the
problem that we're not getting now."
SENATOR WILKEN asked if all four fiscal notes are current.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES replied that two are redundant. The
Division of Geological and Geophysical Surveys (DGS) fiscal note
contains some travel costs that are also built into the fiscal
note from the Governor's Office.
SENATOR HALFORD said he noticed the commission will have the
authority to accept grants, contributions and appropriations and
asked if any are pending right now.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES said he didn't know of any but that grants
are generally available through federal agencies.
SENATOR HALFORD pointed out the fiscal note is incredibly low,
but it's covered by the fact that DNR would provide technical
support from existing positions.
MR. MILTON WILTSE, Director, DGS, DNR, stated support for HB 53
because similar commissions have been very effective in bringing
together private and public sector organizations to look at ways
to mitigate the impacts of an earthquake and how to get things
done on a voluntary basis, through building codes and various
public policies.
MR. GARY CARVER said he is also a geologist who moved to Kodiak
five years ago from California. He had a considerable amount of
experience interacting with the California Seismic Safety
Commission in California, so he has a first hand perspective
regarding this issue. The California commission was created
because California is in a high seismic exposure area and lacked
any kind of coherent way to provide expertise to decision makers.
He noted, "Creation of the commission there provided the kind of
focus that we need here in Alaska and, over the long haul down
there, has more than paid its way in reducing earthquake losses…"
MR. SHELDON WINTERS, State Farm Insurance, said that State Farm
works with commissions in other states and has found them to be a
very effective way to identify mitigation issues for disaster
potential of major earthquakes. He said, "A commission such as
this allows for coordination of the different agencies, programs
and expertise, and allows for consistent policies to be followed
by all those agencies."
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass HB 53 from committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
CSHB 382(FIN)-CLEANUP OF ILLEGAL DRUG SITES
REPRESENTATIVE GRETCHEN GUESS, sponsor of HB 382, said the intent
of this bill is to insure that illegal drug labs are cleaned up
before they are reoccupied. The State of Alaska has no guidelines
to insure that illegal drug labs, such as meth-amphetamine (meth)
labs, are cleaned up so two things tend to happen. Either a
residential owner wants to clean up the lab and doesn't know what
to do. In Juneau, when the owner of a house with a lab discovered
it, he gutted the house and burned the hazardous material. He
ended up getting fined. However, in most cases, a residential
owner will vacuum the carpet and re-rent the house but the
mercury, lead and other chemicals are still in the house and
cause health risks to the new tenants. This bill sets up testing
and decontamination criteria and guidelines for people to follow
to insure that a unit is fit for occupancy.
CSHB 382(FIN) insures that the occupant, as well as the
residential owner, is notified and that the owner signs a return
receipt. She wanted to insure that the Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC) had to provide the material to
the law enforcement agency.
She explained that the term "rent" is an interesting verb because
it could be used for the person who rents to someone else or the
person or to the person who pays to rent that property. Page 4,
line 13 says a person is in violation and guilty of a class A
misdemeanor if that person knowingly transfers, sells, leases or
rents a property to another person. They also added in an
affirmative defense, which was suggested by the legal drafter,
which requires notification to a property manager, if there is
one involved in the situation.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS said that this bill is supported by the
municipalities, troopers and police forces who often bust these
labs and then watch them be reoccupied knowing they haven't been
cleaned up.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked if they can usually find the owner of
the property and whether this generally happens with rental
properties.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS replied that currently, law enforcement
notifies the property owner of the bust on the property and
that's where the process stops. The property owner has nowhere to
go for clean-up information after he or she has been notified.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked what the next step is if they don't get
a return receipt from the person being notified.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS said that is a very good question and she
didn't know.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said they could just be setting themselves up.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS said they would have to have something in
place if the certified mail or the return receipt does not come
back. She said law enforcement in Alaska has not had a problem
finding the property owner and getting the receipt back.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said he didn't know if they should leave that
in there.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked about the incident in Juneau.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS explained that an out-of-state landlord came
to Juneau after being notified of a bust at his Juneau property
and tried to find some guidelines and help. He ended up gutting
the house and taking the contents to the dump but the dump
wouldn't take it because it was hazardous material. Not knowing
what to do, he burned it outside of his home and was fined. DEC
had no guidelines; no one had guidelines.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked who fined him.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS said she believed it was either the state or
the city. She wasn't sure.
SENATOR STEVENS asked who declared it hazardous waste.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS replied that law enforcement officers are
trained to do that, but in this case she thought the owner
disclosed it when he went to the dump.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to adopt the proposed committee substitute
to HB 382. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
LIEUTENANT JULIA GRIMES said she was available to answer
questions.
SENATOR STEVENS asked how often this occurs in a given year.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES replied that in 2000, 50 meth labs were
eradicated. Right now police officers are following federal
guidelines for notification of the property owner and placarding.
To her knowledge, the police haven't failed to find the property
owners in these cases.
SENATOR STEVENS asked if any statistical data is available to
determine how many repeat incidents happened at the same
location.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES said she didn't have that data, but she didn't
think that happens very often.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked if she thought the certified mail was a
good thing, a bad thing or over burdensome.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES responded that she didn't think it was
burdensome, since it's what they have been doing to comply with
federal law. They are assisted a lot by the Drug Enforcement
Agency (DEA).
SENATOR TAYLOR said his only concern is what enforcement tool
will be used by the department when the owner fails, within four
days, to remove the occupants, secure the property or do any
testing.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS responded that as long as they do not try to
re-rent a unit or try to sell it without disclosure, there is
none. If the owner chooses not to clean it up, that's okay; they
just can't reoccupy it. The guidelines solely apply to
reoccupying the property.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what would happen if an owner reoccupies it.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS replied that would be a class A misdemeanor
(page 4, line 13).
SENATOR TAYLOR said he thought if they were going to hold people
to that kind of standard, they should have something more than
registered mail to get hold of them. Four days may not be an
adequate period of time for notification. He asked where that
number came from.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS replied that some states use immediate, some
use 24 hours, some use 48 hours. She added, "Given distances and
absentee landlords, we doubled it…And it is 'knowingly' under the
class A misdemeanor." She noted the Municipality of Anchorage
allows 48 hours to secure a condemned property.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said that 'knowingly' in this case is upon
return of the receipt after being notified by mail or some other
method.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Lieutenant Grimes what chemicals are found
in a standard run-of-the-mill meth lab.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES replied that the typical chemicals are
extremely caustic and corrosive, such as toluene, camping fuel,
paint thinner, acetone, spray cleaner, butane fuel, gum scrubber
detergent products and muriatic acid. Sulfuric acid is obtained
from drain cleaner. Lithium batteries are required as well as
sodium hydroxide, found in lye. The chemical reactions between
those chemicals cause the real toxic residue, which gets spilled
a lot. Fumes are absorbed into carpeting, furniture, upholstery
and walls and remain until they are properly cleaned up. They are
a real hazard to anybody who goes in without the correct
equipment. Law enforcement officers go into these labs with
appropriate breathing apparatus and clothing.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if anyone knew the cost of cleanup.
MS. MARY SIROKY, legislative liaison for DEC, explained that
cleanups can include removing carpeting, furniture, and taking
down dry wall. Other states have looked at painting as a form of
encapsulation.
SENATOR TAYLOR said they are talking about a very significant
expense.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS said that depends on the level of chemicals.
DEC would set guidelines on decontamination.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that there is frequently more than one
victim, not only those who use the drugs that are produced and
that entire industry, but also the owners of property, the people
who come up with a plan, inspectors, etc. He commented, "I can
see this having a devastating affect on someone, especially in a
multi-unit place."
MS. SIROKY responded that the law enforcement agency, which is in
charge of the cleanup, would make the determination of whether or
not the vapors and chemicals are restricted to one area or
multiple areas. Their research shows that most of the time the
damage stays in one unit. DEC will keep a list of people who are
qualified to test, but are not certified, and establish
guidelines on what has to be done, but an owner can choose to do
it himself or hire someone who is certified to do it.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked where those people would be located.
MS. SIROKY said they have a list of about five or six labs that
are capable of doing most of the testing. According to DEC
research, no lab in the state is currently capable of testing for
one of the substances, other than the state lab. DEC anticipates
the state lab will fill that need until it's available in the
private sector.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how the state lab in Anchorage does the
testing on a meth lab in Tok.
MS. SIROKY replied that the samples are shipped to the lab. DEC
envisions the responsibility will be upon the owner of the
facility to hire a contractor or get the expertise to do the
sampling and ship it to the lab. DEC will not be out there
sampling; it will just verify the lab samples.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he was trying to figure out what happens to
somebody in a more rural community. He is concerned about a class
A misdemeanor against mom and pop living in Glennallen and how
they would go through the process of making sure it was inspected
- finding the guy that is the inspector, getting the stuff to a
lab, getting it cleaned up and having somebody verify it, etc. He
thought it would work fine in Anchorage, but he didn't know about
rural areas.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked Representative Guess what would happen
if the bill didn't pass.
REPRESENTATIVE GUESS replied that right now the police or
troopers will bust a meth lab, they post that it was a meth lab,
they send notice to the residential owner and that's where it
stops. They will not know if the building was ever cleaned and
most likely it will not be cleaned in an appropriate way.
Regarding Senator Taylor's concern, she said the intent of the
bill is that DEC would provide guidelines and a list of who to
talk to about testing. DEC would also answer questions. The state
is not going to go in and spend state resources cleaning up mom
and pop's rental.
4:40 p.m.
SENATOR TAYLOR suggested that she use Civil Rule 4 for the
notification process, so that if registered mail is used to
notify a person, a refusal must be received. He noted that
currently, before a building can be let for public use, the owner
must get an occupancy permit. He suggested "bootstrapping" off of
that because those permits are available in almost every
community. A local building inspector could come out and see that
the cleanup was adequate.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES clarified when law enforcement finds a lab and
does an eradication, DEA has a contract with a civilian company
that will go wherever the lab is located. So far, it has not
mattered if the lab was in a remote location or in an urban
location. The company will haul away any gross amount of
hazardous chemicals and materials identified by the law
enforcement officers on the scene.
SENATOR STEVENS asked if after the DEA removes the offending lab,
the building is condemned and DEC comes in and determines whether
there are any remnants of the production.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES replied that right now law enforcement takes
samples and other evidence required to make a case and arrests
and that's all.
TAPE 02-23, SIDE B
Lieutenant Grimes explained:
... call this company contracted to DEA, and they tell
this company what they have identified as bulk
chemicals or contaminated equipment that is HAZMAT and
has to be handled, you know, specifically as HAZMAT.
And that material is dealt with, you know, the
glassware and other equipment you use to make the meth-
amphetamine isn't always seized because it's hazardous
material. So it's destroyed but it's picked up and
dealt with properly by this company. But the carpeting
inside the house, for instance, or whatever else might
be contaminated - that part of the residence, that is
what remains that needs to be dealt with by the
landlord.
SENATOR ELTON said he didn't see any irreconcilable differences
and he thought the issue was about the protocols on handling
these incidents. He thought Senator Taylor's points were good and
that they could be worked out with the sponsor before Senate
Finance hears the bill. He said he was comfortable moving the
bill out of committee.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON suggested having the bill referred to the
Senate Judiciary Committee.
SENATOR HALFORD said he is interested in the new legal standard,
because there are some other places he would like to apply it. He
thought the legal standard in the definition of "illegal drug
manufacturing site" is a good one because it means property in
which there is a reasonably clear possibility.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said he didn't mind holding the bill in
committee if Senator Taylor would help out with it.
SENATOR TAYLOR agreed to do so.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON announced he would hold the bill in committee.
CSHB 508(RLS)-DIVE FISHERY ASSOCIATIONS/PSP REPORTS
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON announced CSHB 508(RLS) to be up for
consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE DREW SCALZI presented CSHB 508(RLS) on behalf of
the House Resources Committee and said CSHB 508(RLS) is a very
simple bill. The regional dive fishery is looking for better ways
to get information out about areas with paralytic shellfish
poisoning (PSP). Currently, DEC faxes the test results back to
the applicant. The bill, through the intent language, asks DEC to
post those hot spots on a website that is accessible to
interested parties. It also asks, in section 2, that when ADF&G
develops an annual operating plan for the regional dive
fisheries, which it does every year, that DEC be included upfront
in the planning process. Currently, DEC comes in after the fact,
which is cumbersome, especially if it shoots down or restricts a
plan.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked why legislative intent is being used to
address this problem. He pointed out, "We could send them a
letter which would do the same thing. This is unenforceable."
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said DEC could speak to that, but he
explained the initial draft placed that provision in section 1,
and not under intent language. However, DEC wanted more latitude
to develop the web page. DEC's concern is that if information is
put on the web page in the wrong manner, the general public might
be unduly alarmed about a red tide. DEC wants the ability to
structure the website so that the people who need that
information can access it through a series of steps.
SENATOR TAYLOR said his concern is broadcasting information that
could be very damaging to proprietary operations, for example for
a shellfish grower here in Juneau.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said that is why the intent language gives
DEC the latitude to develop the site. The information would still
be public, but DEC could design it so that it is more geared
toward the people who are interested, rather than provide
information that could be misleading.
MS. MARY SIROKY, legislative liaison to DEC, said DEC's goal is
to provide this information through some sort of log-in key for
use mainly by producers. Producers want rapid access to the
information and prefer using a secure way through the internet,
as opposed to relying on faxes and phones. DEC would provide the
producers with a log-in key that would not be available to the
general public.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said the reason is kind of the opposite of
the problem. When a beach is known to be clean, the shell
fishermen need every opportunity to harvest the product and get
the product to market as rapidly as they can. They feel that
sharing the information would improve that ability.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he is concerned that Representative Scalzi
keeps saying this is public information. He asked if he sent
clams to DEC for testing, whether the results would become public
information.
MS. SIROKY said very little information is not available to the
public under the state's Freedom of Information Act, so should
someone request the results, DEC would be required to provide
that information.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked, regarding section 2, if state law has to be
changed to have DEC participate in the development of the annual
operating plan.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI replied yes.
MS. JULIE DECKER, Executive Director, Southeast Alaska Regional
Dive Fishery Association, said PSP results are faxed to a list of
Alaska shippers who have paid for the test. DEC tries to provide
the results as soon as possible after they are known. She said a
DEC website would provide a much more efficient process for the
DEC lab. This bill will make DEC's job easier as it will receive
fewer phones calls from divers. The bill will also eliminate the
problem of who is allowed to see the PSP results by removing DEC
completely that issue. In addition, this idea fits the vision of
a more developed shellfish industry. It is possible the rest of
the shellfish industry may follow in these footsteps if this
proves to be a successful way to distribute information. The site
will also be useful for data collection and planning purposes.
The following is a letter she submitted to the committee in
support of HB 508:
On behalf of SARDFA, the Southeast Alaska Regional Dive
Fisheries Association, I would like to express support
for House Bill 508.
HB 508 will do two things: 1:establish a state web site
where all paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP) results
for geoducks will be posted and 2) include the
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) in the
planning stages of the dive fisheries each year.
It is necessary to establish a state web site where all
geoduck PSP results will be posted for three reasons.
First, the web site will allow the DEC lab personnel to
be more efficient. Second, it will eliminate DEC from
the role of deciding who is allowed to receive PSP
results (e.g. only allowing those who paid for tests to
see the results). Third, as both the harvested and
farmed shellfish industries grow, the web site will be
a public place to access PSP results for entire
geographical areas. This will allow the geoduck fishery
to be planned by both harvesters and shippers, will
allow potential from sites to be chosen while taking
historical PSP levels into account and will allow the
DEC regulator to see if PSP bloom are occurring in a
given geographical areas.
Because SARDFA felt posting PSP results on the web was
so necessary with respect to the geoduck fishery,
SARDFA began posting the results this year on its new
web site. You can view SARDFA's simplistic postings at
www.sardfa.org and click on "PSP Results".
Including DEC in the planning stages of the dive
fisheries each year is necessary to coordinate
information and scheduling between the groups involved
(DEC, ADF&G and SARDFA). Currently the geoduck fishery
and possibly the horse clam fishery in the future,
requires coordination of area boundaries, water
sampling stations and PSP planning related to old and
new fishing areas in order to schedule the work
necessary to open the fishery. Much of the work must be
done during the summer months when weather and daylight
permit.
HB 508 is another step toward creating a more efficient
and improved working structure between state agencies
and private entities. Thank you for your consideration
of this bill.
SENATOR HALFORD moved to pass CSHB 508(RLS) from committee with
individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note.
There were no objections and it was so ordered.
CSHJR 47(RLS)-LOW SULFUR DIESEL FUEL REQUIREMENTS
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON announced CSHJR 47(RLS) to be up for
consideration.
MR. BILL LAWRENCE, staff to Representative Carl Morgan, sponsor,
said he would answer questions.
MS. DONNA VUKICH supported CSHJR 47(RLS).
MS. MEERA KOHLER supported CSHJR 47(RLS).
SENATOR HALFORD moved to pass CSHJR 47(RLS) from committee and
asked for unanimous consent. There were no objections and it was
so ordered.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON adjourned the meeting at 5:03 p.m.
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